First, thanks to all of you who have asked me to blog. Not sure why you want that, but nonetheless I appreciate your interest. Seriously.
I've got a question that I need help with, but let me tell a story that will give you the context. Last week, I got a call fairly late at night from somebody who had visited our church. This person had a daughter in the hospital who was dying, and wanted me to come by. I did. I found out this person was an adherent of a non-Christian cult (they believe Jesus was created, thus is inferior to God and clearly, not God; they also believe that Jesus did not bodily rise from the dead), as were most of the family. There were at least 2 clergy at the hospital from that religion, and they all prayed for the girl. I also know that there was a huge prayer chain from that religion that sought God's intervention.
I prayed with the girl's father, I called my wife to call our prayer chain, and the next day I asked my email list to pray. Well...the girl recovered, miraculously in my estimation. I heard the doctor tell the family she had an hour to live, maybe 3-4 at the most. The girl survived the night and began a rapid recovery from unstoppable bleeding and from being without oxygen for several minutes. Again, methinks a genuine miracle.
So here's my question...Did God hear the prayers of the non-Christian cult? Does God hear the prayers of non-believers? I'm confident God heard my prayers, and the prayers of many of our people, because we see Jesus as our Great High Priest and because we understand at least a little of James 5.16. But what about the prayers of the non-Christian cult? I'm listening.
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23 comments:
Without seriously considering this at this moment I would say that from past consideration I think that God does hear the prayers of non-believers. The difference being when He does intervene who do they attribute the action to? God loves them and therefore intervenes in their lives and blesses them regardless of their recognition of who (or if there is a Who) is acting on their behalf. God asks us to be a blessing to the nations (so that they may be brought into relationship with Him) so why wouldn't He do the same. I think He heard and responded to all the prayers. The thing to be thankful for is that we have not been given over to our depravity and we have been further blessed by Him to know that He is the One intervening.
What a great God we ALL have! In my humble opinion, the answer to your question is YES, ABSOLUTELY. I believe God hears the prayers of all. (How else would a sinner be forgiven?) And in this life that we think we control, God is the only one in charge. Maybe the real question is whether or not God ANSWERS the non-believers' prayers. I don't know if He grants the petitions of non-believers, but He certainly loves them and hears them. And ultimately, His Will prevails in His time. The 'means' He uses for His 'end' is a bit of a mystery to me.
(Great to have you back!)
What does God "hear"?
Well, first there's the smart alec answer: It doesn't matter what He hears because all the days of our lives are written down before they come to be.
Then, there's the very similar Calvinist answer: He hears the ones He has predestined to reach his "ears".
Then there's the simple answer: He hears only that which comes through Christ. But of course, that leaves us to wonder how the folks in the Old Testament ever got his ear.
From your description of the cult, they were praying to a false god. So why would God answer a prayer prayed to someone other than himself? How would reinforcing their false notions bring them to himself?
Wow, you pose a great question. I'm not sure exactly what the answer is at the moment, but I know it has something to do with Jesus, and faith, and seeking the true God.
Brett et al,
I believe God pursues and blesses the pre-believing world, but is that the same as hearing their prayers? And really, God answers a lot of the prayers of believers who never give Him credit. And how would He get the glory if the cultists think they're praying to the true God? I'm searching for some biblical context, and I am having difficulty coming up with some. You're the expert; help me!
Karen,
Like your comment! There surely is a difference between hearing and granting. Thanks for pointing out that distinction.
Sloth,
Yeah, me either. But I'm with you that it must have to do with faith and genuine seeking. My head hurts. I'm on to something else.
I know you are referring to prayer in terms of God's hearing or responding to a particular request, but I thought I'd consider another angle. If prayer is a dialogue wherein a person can listen and respond to God, perhaps this is a bit difficult for a non-believer. Would such a non-believer pray to seek God's will or simply state his or her own needs, "hoping" that God's will is to do what he asks? Are these fundamentally different prayers?
I'm asking whether or not a non-believer can be or desires to be sensitive to God's will in these matters.
You'd think with all the time I spend not praying that I'd be able to come up with some great theological answer to help a brother out but I guess I should probably be a bit more concerned with my own prayer life.
I'm thinking that if we know He hears our prayers than we can just keep praying and pray for those who don't know Him.
On some level, doesn't He have to hear the prayers of the unbelievers because we are all at that point before salvation? Or are we saved before we "pray the prayer"?
I'd really like to know...
Would you do anything that your children ask of you? Would you at least grant them the time to listen to their request? Would you be as likely to grant the request of a stranger? On the other hand, would you never grant the request of a stranger? You are a person. God is a Person. Prayer and the issues that surround it are not matters of divine mechanics but personal relating.
Secret,
Thanks for the comment. I suspect that you are right - most pre-Christians would hope God completes their wish list, with little desire for what's on His heart. Unfortunately, the skeptic in me would believe that about many, if not most, believers. And no, I doubt a pre-Christian is sensitive to God's desires.
Y-life,
You crack me up! That's the funniest line I heard in a while. So about this "being saved" business...
I'm thinking that "praying the prayer" is an invention of what is known today as revivalism. I don't think praying the prayer does any good at all. It just makes preacher-types feel better.
You and I know that a person is saved when he believes Jesus is who He said He is and did what He said He did. We repent and are transformed by the Holy Spirit into a new creature.
Nothing wrong with "praying the prayer", as long as you don't hang your hat on it. It's the Holy Spirit convincing your spirit of the truth of your condition that we hang our hat on. Make sense?
Dr. J,
Hey, bud! I heard things calmed a bit in your world of weird.
I agree with "Prayer and the issues that surround it are not matters of divine mechanics but personal relating." But that's my point...how do pre-Christians relate to God? What is the basis for them to relate to Him?
Billy,
I think you are right on. Most Christians (myself included) understand prayer as a pretty simple help line. I do think it serves this function. It's an interaction where we communicate need--people of all religious convictions seem to understand that they need divine help from time to time; I pray I would seek more divine direction and insight at least occasionally.
Marshton,
I'm following up on the person to person comment. Does God respond to people differently based on who they are as I would respond to my child differently than I would a stranger? I love your conclusion regarding "personal relating." I guess I'm just pushing the "mechanics" a bit.
Okay. Well, you said you were looking for biblical context and so I went to the Bible. Goodness there's so much there! This is difficult - but rewarding - for an amateur lay person. :) But I keep returning to Matthew 6. Obviously, the "Lord's Prayer" is there and from the way Jesus instructs us to pray, I think that He is indicating that only those who know the Father are heard. Heard, meaning really listened to and responded to by Him.
Billy, you said that people from that religion sought God's intervention. Really? Did they? The One True God? If you're praying to the wrong god - who IS NOT God - or for the wrong reasons, why would God grant a request that is requested of someone else????
Thinking of Marshton's comment I would add this: as a person, why would YOU give your child, or wife (which the Church is often compared to) for that matter, anything that they are asking of another man?
I think not.
Jesus says "your Father knows exactly what you need even before you ask him!" And I think Jesus is referring to Believers. Not non-believers. God is a jealous God, right?
If it is sinful/evil to have other Gods (which obviously cults do), then the One True God would not reward sin/evil.
Billy,
You always make sense to me. I think you put it well! I now feel led to go "pray the prayer"...does that make you feel good. It makes me feel good to say that. :)
If I'm a preacher and lead myself in "THE prayer," does that count for my numbers?
I'm just kidding. Oh, still no baby but we are scheduled for Thursday!
Karen,
Wow. Good stuff. I really like the comment about giving my child, or bride, something they asked of another. Seems like good insight to me! Gracias.
Matt,
I knew I felt good this morning for some unexplained reason...now I know: you prayed the prayer! Thanks, man!
So are we having a C-section now?
Billy--
Thanks for coming back to the blogging world. I'm stalling from writing a paper (ok, two papers) that are due in the morning. But hey, I need a break right?
Up here in the 25 degree weather we've been discussing "who is God?" all fall. It has been a big exercise in theology especially for a group of believers that come from a variety of backgrounds (i.e... not Baptist). When I read the post, I immediately thought about Paul's sermon on Mars Hill (Acts 17:22-31) where he points to the statue of the "Unknown God." Paul says hey, this unknown God you've been worshiping, I know him!.... let me tell you about him (therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you... or in the Message...I'm here to introduce you to this God so you can worship intelligently and know who you are dealing with). God heard the worship of the Athenians... in their ignorance. Prayer being one aspect of worship tells me he heard the prayers of the pagan Athenians and responded as well.
Chelsea,
I'm not sure I buy your thesis. The text never says that God accepted or heard the Athenian's worship. Plus, their worship of the unknown god was in the context of worshipping multiple gods. (I'm not convinced it was even in the context of searching for a true God, they were just trying to cover their backsides, so to speak.) In scripture, God was not pleased when people mixed worship of him with worship of anything else.
Hope you guys are enjoying your first holiday season in MA.
That's not really what I was trying to say, but thanks for helping me clarify my point. Perhaps, I shouldn't try to write on multiple topics at once (I have two papers going right now).
This is just the first passage that came to my mind probably because this passage came up in a very recent conversation that I was peophaving up here. Yes, God is never pleased with "buffet" religion. Covering our backsides with multiple religious philosophies would show lack of trust in the sufficiency of Christ.
I guess what I'm trying to say that in some part of the Athenians heart they were looking for something more and that God honored that and heard their worship. Paul was pointing them to Christ on one hand and trying to be relevant to them on another. Maybe not, but just seeing God act in the lives of non-Christians who pray and even Christians who pray with wrong motives seems to point to God acting in their lives to turn them to himself and bring himself glory. Hmm... good thoughts though. :)
Okay...here are my two cents. Jesus taught us to pray in His name, so while God knows the hearts of the non-believers and knows what their prayers are, if they are not asking in Jesus' name, I'm not convinced He "hears" their prayers.
However, in situations such as this, I do think He places believers where we need to be in order to petition on behalf of the non-believers. The man visiting the church, then calling you late in the night when he needed you, and you going...I believe all those events have the hand of God on them. I believe the miracle of the girl's survival was so God would be glorified and that ultimately, a non-believer's heart could be opened to Jesus. While the latter may not happen immediately, the wheels have likely been put into motion for someone to share with a non-believer who was a part of this situation.
...Okay...so that was a bit more than two cents worth. Thanks for the blogging and for the comments. It's pretty interesting to find out what others' perspectives are.
k, Chelsea, forgive me for misunderstanding you the first time. Your second post seemed to boil down to, "...in some part of the Athenians heart they were looking for something more and that God honored that and heard their worship. ... seeing God act in the lives of non-Christians who pray ...seems to point to God acting in their lives to turn them to himself and bring himself glory."
Sounds better for sure. Still not convinced that He heard their worship though.
Down at the bottom where God acts and turns folks to himself. Is that in response to their prayers or something that he initiated all along regardless of anyone's prayers?
I had this similar question in my BSF study a few weeks ago when we were studying Matthew chapter 7. (The question asked us to read Matt. 7:11 to help us answer). Yes, I think he did hear the prayers of the non-Christian cult. God is omnipresent, so He has to hear all we say and think, but does He act upon it? According to Matt. 7:8 "For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds;and to him who knocks, the door will be opened." If you read Luke 11:9-13 the last verse states ..."how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!" SO, do these verses apply to ALL?? believers and non-believers?
But, these non-Christians are considered false prophets and Jesus warns us about them in Matt. 7:21-23. These false prophets may teach the gospel and perform miracles, but Jesus never knew them. Okay, so I may be off topic now, but these were the verses that came to me when I read the blog.
~CW
As the "Mark" part of the Wachsmann family, my smart alec answer is, "if He wants to."
God even acquiesced to Satan in the book of Job. I think it was Peter who was told by Jesus that Satan had asked for permission to shake down. Is Satan different from a cult member, in that Satan knew he was dealing with the one true God?
I think God can/does answer the prayers of non-believers and cult members, BUT when He does, He does it in such a way that they may come to know Him as the one true God.
But, when the day of judgment comes, and they say "Lord, Lord," surely Jesus will say, "I never knew you." Matt 7:21-23
Wachsmanns,
Good comments. It seems that God does hear everything, but acts according to His plan. Mark, if He does answer an unbeliever, I agree that surely His motive is to get people to look to Him. I don't know how that works, but I figure He does! Thanks for commenting.
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